what is good historical evidence and modern evidence of magic usage

[1Based Frog1]

I think that the main disagreement you'd run into when pitching this to atheists would be along the lines of "how do I know that my body does stuff because of my consciousness? If I write some poetry about the conscious experience of the color red, maybe that just happens to align with my conscious experience of red because my consciousness reflects the brain responsible for both of those things. Maybe I feel red this way for the same reason I describe red this way." or worse, "I am a strange loop, a mathematical pattern thingy, but also I am an illusion for some reason I guess so I don't really exist I just feel like I do (which is an illusion that I feel something because I don't feel anything albeit)"

The issue is that they assume physical explanations should be able to account for something that might not even be physical in nature. Like trying to measure weight with a ruler.

 

[SoytanEnthusiast]

The issue is that they assume physical explanations should be able to account for something that might not even be physical in nature.

Atheists are known for their circular reasoning

 

[Itransheartblox]

religion miracles or something

 

[AR47]

>We made this model of the universe and it ALMSOT works so it is necessary to slap in some unobservable, unverifiable variable to fill the gap because having a false understanding of the universe is better than having an incomplete understanding of the universe because I need to appease my labcoat ego
Yeah ok buddy, dark matter of the gaps, why don't we start explaining everything with random, unobservable shit?

I don't understand the problem with discovering things through mathematical necessity if alternative models are shit. The rest of physics is backed up by immense amounts of evidence, so dark matter is just the better explanation than 'lol all physics is wrong'. There is also the explanation that the equations we use for gravity work differently in different scales. But this explanation is unpopular, since every time people have tried to make a model that explains how gravity works in different scales they have failed.

Your point about consciousness is interesting. Yet, if consciousness affects reality in such a way, wouldn't we see consistent, observable evidence of it beyond our own subjective experience?

Well we could try to see if there are any electrical impulses created in the brain ex-nihilo. And maybe psychic phenomena is real. I don't really understand what you're trying to ask.

I think that the main disagreement you'd run into when pitching this to atheists would be along the lines of "how do I know that my body does stuff because of my consciousness? If I write some poetry about the conscious experience of the color red, maybe that just happens to align with my conscious experience of red because my consciousness reflects the brain responsible for both of those things. Maybe I feel red this way for the same reason I describe red this way." or worse, "I am a strange loop, a mathematical pattern thingy, but also I am an illusion for some reason I guess so I don't really exist I just feel like I do (which is an illusion that I feel something because I don't feel anything albeit)"

It sounds strange to think that the brain already knows what consciousness will think about red, even though the brain and consciousness are fundamentally different things. Maybe I'll think about this later.

Also consciousness=illusion sounds like a massive cope.

 

[Spas]

I don't understand the problem with discovering things through mathematical necessity if alternative models are shit. The rest of physics is backed up by immense amounts of evidence, so dark matter is just the better explanation than 'lol all physics is wrong'. There is also the explanation that the equations we use for gravity work differently in different scales. But this explanation is unpopular, since every time people have tried to make a model that explains how gravity works in different scales they have failed.

There's no such thing as "mathematical necessity", there's only presuppositions. "but all the other theories are shit!" Doesn't make yours true. You have to presuppose that your current theories are correct in order to infer that there are unobservable factors at play. "it's good enough so lets just fill the holes with whatever fits" is fine if you're just trying to approximate what you're studying, but to demand it be accepted as a bulletproof explanation and accurate assessment of reality is just ridiculous.
>lol all physics is wrong

 

[AR47]

"but all the other theories are shit!" Doesn't make yours true.

It kinda does lol. Or more accurately you are epistemically obliged to believe the best theory, depending on the amount of evidence you have.

You have to presuppose that your current theories are correct in order to infer that there are unobservable factors at play.

Which is a fair presupposition to make, considering the evidence we have.

 

[Spas]

you are epistemically obliged to believe the best theory

I am not obligated to accept a retarded assertion just because we're too stupid to come up with something better

Which is a fair presupposition to make

Still a presupposition, not a fact and by extension not a necessity. If there's a gaping hole in a theory it's not unreasonable to be skeptical and refuse to accept an unobservable element. It's fine for approximating but it's by no means proven fact.

 

[DOLL]

Presuppose this wang nerds

 

[Anon_Humor]

Presuppose this wang nerds

What?

 

[okaysomevampires]

Emanuel Swedenborg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe someone will want to dig into the sources for this.
I also looked at the wikipedia page listing psychic detectives. Obviously the "woah, another miss!" entries tell me nothing except that there are a lot of wannabes. It lists like three solid hits, and gives no indication of those same psychics scoring additional hits. Two of the hits are from aboriginal Australian psychics.

 

[UendeligKamp]

I believe words are magic and language can function as 'casting' 'spells'

 

[Tsar]

I believe words are magic and language can function as 'casting' 'spells'

They really are. You can make a person very happy or furious with a single word.

 

[1Based Frog1]

Emanuel Swedenborg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe someone will want to dig into the sources for this.

Most of the sources are secondhand accounts, usually written decades later by people who were already Swedenborg fans, including those who reported his fire vision.