History Ancient Greeks were not gay

[Tsar]

I find this piece of historical revisionism particularly disturbing because it gives the rainbow clown ammunition to peddle their propaganda and has even spread to normie circles. The only ones who participated in sodomy were the elites (sound familiar?) and they would do it to little boys. How tolerant.

Any peasant caught engaging in such activity would be exiled or punished by death.

 

[Weebhunter3000]

You are correct of course, but could I get a source to back it up?

 

[Seraphim]

You are correct of course, but could I get a source to back it up?

How the ancient Greeks viewed pederasty and homosexuality

In many city-states, it was perfectly acceptable for older men to have sexual relationships with young boys, a practice known as pederasty.

bigthink.com

There’s this. It seems like it was mostly the Spartans that engaged in the act. While other city-states like Athens outlawed it.

 

[Muttcel Foid Kill]

I find this piece of historical revisionism particularly disturbing because it gives the rainbow clown ammunition to peddle their propaganda and has even spread to normie circles. The only ones who participated in sodomy were the elites (sound familiar?) and they would do it to little boys. How tolerant.

Any peasant caught engaging in such activity would be exiled or punished by death.

this myth that most greeks and romans were fags is 20th century lib propaganda sure there were some but it wasnt the majority and as frequent as some modern "historians" claim

 

[Aedra]

>the elites, aka the ruling class, the most powerful people in ancient greece were gay pedophiles
>the commoners who had no power and were oppressed by said elites weren't raging homosexuals
>therefore that means ancient greece wasn't gay despite its rulers being gay

 

[Tsar]

>the elites, aka the ruling class, the most powerful people in ancient greece were gay pedophiles
>the commoners who had no power and were oppressed by said elites weren't raging homosexuals
>therefore that means ancient greece wasn't gay despite its rulers being gay

To become an elite means to sell your soul to the devil. The current elite class is composed of pedophiles and homosexuals but that doesn’t encompass the entirety of the population at all unless you’re in some Muslim populated country.

 

[Aedra]

The current elite class is composed of pedophiles and homosexuals but that doesn’t encompass the entirety of the population at all

Even doe

unless you’re in some Muslim populated country.

Do you mean to say homosexuality has always been accepted in pisslamic countries? Certainly any proper Muslim takes no issue with pedophilia as long as it's heterosexual but most would oppose gay shit. I know there's a strong pederastic underground culture in a lot of muslim countries but to say they cover the entire population is the exact same as saying every ancient greek ever was a gay pedophile. It's not exactly fair to them. Plus some fundamentalists like the Taliban explicitly oppose such practices.

 

[Tsar]

Even doe
View attachment 226

Do you mean to say homosexuality has always been accepted in pisslamic countries? Certainly any proper Muslim takes no issue with pedophilia as long as it's heterosexual but most would oppose gay shit. I know there's a strong pederastic underground culture in a lot of muslim countries but to say they cover the entire population is the exact same as saying every ancient greek ever was a gay pedophile. It's not exactly fair to them. Plus some fundamentalists like the Taliban explicitly oppose such practices.

Oops, that was a mistake on my part. I agree with Muslims forceful removal of homosexuality within their community and they do a good job in that regard.

 

[Harlequin]

Oops, that was a mistake on my part. I agree with Muslims forceful removal of homosexuality within their community and they do a good job in that regard.

The medieval Islamic world was gayer than ancient Greece. Both were to some extent pederastic. The fact that pederasty had to be invented by the Cretans to solve overpopulation, and then was spread to the rest of Greece, while in the Muslim world it persisted despite people knowing it was a sin, is evidence that Arabs and Turks are more naturally "sotadic" than the Greks.

I think the book Homosexuality in Ancient Greece: The Myth is Collapsing provides a lot of great sources from ancient Greece showing that many people were against homosexuality, but it is hard to believe that pederasty was overwhelmingly unfavored when there is so much evidence of its normalcy, as well as evidence of it in various other civilizations with very harsh gender segregation like what was happening in Greece. Meanwhile in Rome, where there was less gender segregation, pederasty was widely recognized as unroman and foreign until the Romans themselves were genetically replaced by easterners in the major cities.

How the ancient Greeks viewed pederasty and homosexuality

In many city-states, it was perfectly acceptable for older men to have sexual relationships with young boys, a practice known as pederasty.

bigthink.com

There’s this. It seems like it was mostly the Spartans that engaged in the act. While other city-states like Athens outlawed it.

No, the Spartans were the most strongly anti-pederasty of all the Greeks. Xenophon records this but plenty of other people also allude to classical Sparta's antipathy towards sexual pederasty.

 

[Tsar]

The medieval Islamic world was gayer than ancient Greece. Both were to some extent pederastic. The fact that pederasty had to be invented by the Cretans to solve overpopulation, and then was spread to the rest of Greece, while in the Muslim world it persisted despite people knowing it was a sin, is evidence that Arabs and Turks are more naturally "sotadic" than the Greks.

I think the book Homosexuality in Ancient Greece: The Myth is Collapsing provides a lot of great sources from ancient Greece showing that many people were against homosexuality, but it is hard to believe that pederasty was overwhelmingly unfavored when there is so much evidence of its normalcy, as well as evidence of it in various other civilizations with very harsh gender segregation like what was happening in Greece. Meanwhile in Rome, where there was less gender segregation, pederasty was widely recognized as unroman and foreign until the Romans themselves were genetically replaced by easterners in the major cities.


No, the Spartans were the most strongly anti-pederasty of all the Greeks. Xenophon records this but plenty of other people also allude to classical Sparta's antipathy towards sexual pederasty.

Interesting. I will take a look at the book. Do you happen to have additional resources or references regarding pederasty in the Ancient World? Sorting through the sea of misinformation on the internet gets tiresome after a while.

 

[Harlequin]

Interesting. I will take a look at the book. Do you happen to have additional resources or references regarding pederasty in the Ancient World? Sorting through the sea of misinformation on the internet gets tiresome after a while.

I have knowledge of some authors who were for it and some who were against it, and some who just neutrally recorded its presence. Is there anything in particular you're looking for?

 

[Harlequin]

Interesting. I will take a look at the book. Do you happen to have additional resources or references regarding pederasty in the Ancient World? Sorting through the sea of misinformation on the internet gets tiresome after a while.

Homosexuality according to ancient Greek physicians - PubMed

Homosexuality and pedophilia in ancient Greece greatly concerned many researchers who were mainly interested in highlighting the social aspect of this phenomenon in ancient Greek society. An important source on the subject was the paintings of a man and his lover in attic black and red figured...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Paper on Greek medical opinions on homosexuality. It is considered an unnatural perversion.

 

[Tsar]

I have knowledge of some authors who were for it and some who were against it, and some who just neutrally recorded its presence. Is there anything in particular you're looking for?

Name an author for each stance please. I want to know the full perspective.

 

[Harlequin]

Name an author for each stance please. I want to know the full perspective.

Well, a problem here is that very few people fully denounce the general idea of pederasty -- a bond between a more mature man with a younger late adolescent. What people like Xenophon, Lycurgus, Plato, Aristophanes, are against, is when this relationship is based on a sexual romance. But people who defend pederasty like Phaedrus and Socrates, in this context, are likewise not necessarily supporting the sexual element of it. They are just supporting the broader idea of it.

Theognis I know justifies it as being divinely inspired in the myth of Ganymede, a myth which Plato suggests is well-known in Athens to be a Cretan fabrication. Pindar does the reverse, he rewrites a myth in pederastic terms because he views this as more wholesome than the prior version (see: Olympian Ode 1) (and yes, Pindar explicitly states this as his reason). But I don't think Pindar ever justifies this. I know some authors defend it as good because pairs of lovers were known to overthrow tyrants, but again I don't know if these authors are really talking about a sexual relationship or just a platonic association (there's a reason we call things "Platonic friendships").

The most common "defenses" of Pederasty don't really defend it, they just recognize it as acceptable like Aeschines who basically says "it is good as long as you are not going too far and as long as nobody is engaging in prostitution". And there are many more people who are just recorded as practicing it without explicitly defending it

Come to think of it, I don't know of any actual defenses of the sexual element of pederasty.