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Introduction
Wilma Schaub (Wilhelmina "Wilno" Giersingenovou; alternately Wilhelmina Giersinken; 12.12.1906 – 1967, München) was the wife of Hitler’s chief adjutant, SS Obergruppenführer Julius Schaub (20.8.1898, München – 27.12.1967, München). They married on 5 May, 1931, in the St. Matthew’s Church in Munich and had two sons Wieland (1942-1951) and Wolfgang (1932–1937). The Schaub family is buried in München, Ostfriedhof, at the St Martins Platz 1. Plot 7-Reihe 6-Grab 19.
Source: https://ww2gravestone.com/people/schaub-julius/
Wilma knew Hitler from the early days of the Nazi party and spent a great deal of time with him over the years. In March 1947, American judge Michael Musmanno conducted a two-day interview with her about everything she had experienced with Hitler. Below are some excerpts relating to Hitler and his relationship with women, translated and typed up by an American researcher blogging under the username putschgirl on Tumblr (putschgirl.tumblr.com, currently adolfhitler33.wordpress.com) The document containing the full text of the interview is archived with the rest of the Musmanno Papers in the Duquesne University Archives at Gumberg Library, Digital Collections, Pittsburgh, USA.
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Q: When did you first meet Adolf Hitler?
A: It was when he was released from Landsberg, it was shortly after that. So it must have been 1925.
Q: Where was it when you first met him?
A: It was at Herr and Frau Hanfstaengl’s apartment in Bogenhausen. We had all driven back from their country home in Uffing and I saw Hitler getting out of the car, taking off his overcoat.
Q: Do you remember your first impressions of Hitler?
A: Certainly, I was impressed with him. Very much so. I’m not embarrassed to admit that now. He was an impressive man, then as well as later.
Q: What was it specifically that impressed you?
A: Oh, I don’t know if I can put it into words. He was always very dynamic, there was always an energy around him that was palpable. You could feel it. It’s very hard to put this precisely into words. You knew this was a young man with a mission. Then it was only a question if he would succeed, but he was what we called “a comer.” Someone with strange power and who possessed great potential.
Q: Who was it that introduced you to Hitler?
A: It was Helene Hanfstaengl, the lady of the house. Hitler was very much attracted to her, he liked spending time over there because she was often there. This was his period where he was love struck with her.
Q: Was there any type of relationship between them?
A: No, but Hitler, I believe, would have wanted one. When he got out of prison, Helene told everyone he had thrown himself at her, begging her to take care of him. He got down on his knees to her.
Q: Got down on his knees?
A: Yes, this is what Helene Hanfstaengl told us. He put his head against her bosom and moaned, “if only you would take care of me.” It was just around that time when this occurred. Her husband was not around the house that evening.
Q: Do you believe her story?
A: Yes, I have no reason to doubt it. Especially since I saw Hitler make eyes at her for years afterwards. He laid siege to her for years, but she wouldn’t be unfaithful to her husband, so Hitler finally lost interest in a potential romance.
Q: Did it bother Hitler that this lady was married to his friend, his associate?
A: I can’t make a statement about that, I couldn’t get into his thought process. It certainly didn’t seem to bother him back then.
Q:What was Hitler like then, in 1925?
A: Oh, he was just very dynamic. He had just gotten out of prison and wanted to taste freedom again. He was very intent on going to all the Munich pastry shops and gorging himself on sweets. He was relaxed with the people he knew well, but he was always reserved in company. He wanted to take drives, eat sweets, look at pretty girls, all the things had been deprived of while in protective custody.
Q: Was this all occuring in Munich?
A: Yes, in those early days, I didn’t always travel with my husband when he would accompany Hitler to various places. But remember, for a few years at least, there was a speaking ban that Hitler had to obey. So he spent most of his time between Munich and Berchtesgaden, where Frau Bechstein had bought him a house.
Q: Was this the famous Berghof?
A: Technically no. Hitler’s house then was called just Wachenfeld. It was just a simple house with a few bedrooms. Houseguests always had to be lodged elsewhere, there just wasn’t enough room for everybody. At first I stayed at the Pension Moritz. Frau Bechstein bought the home from a man named Winter, I think.
Q: Is this the same Winter who ran Hitler’s Munich apartment?
A: No, they are two different people. There’s not a connection there.
(Frau Schaub then talked about Hitler’s friends in the mountains, and his daily routine).
Q: Did you know Hitler’s sister, Frau Raubal?
A: Of course, she was there at Wachenfeld later on. I never met her or her daughters until 1928. They lived in Austria.
Q: One of those daughters was Geli, Hitler’s niece?
A: The two girls were Geli and Friedl, they were half nieces. I was hearty friends with them both. Friedl was prettier, but did not have the gay, carefree personality of Geli. Leo, her son, I also met, but he was retiring and never lived at Wachenfeld. He stayed in Passau.
Q: What was the relationship between Hitler and his niece?
A: There’s no question he loved her. He loved her as much as was capable of loving anyone. Of that I have no doubt whatsoever, it was apparent to even a silly person with no pair of eyes.
Q: How can you be sure?
A: (laughter) It was not a secret, everyone knew. What struck me then was that Hitler threw away all caution with her. He had always been so secretive about his prior relationships. With Geli, he didn’t seem to care who saw them together.
Q: She was very young then, however?
A: I am not sure how old Geli was when I met her. I believe she was 23 or 24 when she killed herself, so she must have been 20 when I met her. Yes, I would think she was 20.
Q: Did she return Hitler’s love?
A: That is harder to say. He was a star, don’t forget that. His nickname then was “The King of Munich.” He was quite a catch for any woman, as hard as it is for you to believe that today. I think gradually she suffered because Hitler was very jealous. He tried to control her and that bothered her greatly. He really interfered with her private life, unless he was the center of it.
Q: What do you mean, he ‘tried to control her?’
A: Well, how can I elaborate? Just as I said, he wanted her on a leash. He was crazy with jealously when she would go out with other men or “deceive” him. He wanted her all to himself. They spent a lot of time together, but also Geli went out with other men. During Fasching (Munich’s carnival), she would absent herself all night. This drove Hitler to despair.
Q: What do you recall about her death?
A: It was actually me who attended the theater the night Geli shot herself. I anticipated nothing like this, nobody did. It was a sudden lightening bolt.
Q: You were with her the night of her death?
A: Indeed I was. She was distracted that night, silent, a little morose, but she was like that often enough. My husband and Hitler were away on a trip. I remember Geli bought herself some chocolate at intermission, but she wasn’t gay that night. She seemed sad.
Q: How did Hitler react to her suicide?
A: He was… he just was shattered. He was never the same man.
He was never at all the same person as he was in the 20’s.
Q: How do you mean this?
A: I mean that he was devastated, completely shaken . He was totally desolate for weeks. Many of use thought he would leave politics, retire or go mad. Some people worried he might even take his own life, but I never thought that way. He was very selfish at that time, consumed with his grief. I knew he wouldn’t kill himself.
Q: Are you sure it was suicide, she was not murdered?
A: Of course not. She killed herself. There is no doubt about that.
Q: Did you speak to Hitler about this?
A: Not at first, nobody did. No one dared to bring this up. Hoffmann took him somewhere away from Munich, and then he visited Geli’s grave in Vienna. He had to sneak in because he was not supposed to leave Germany, something about his service in the World War, I don’t remember the details. It was only a few weeks later that I expressed to him my sadness.
Q: Was there anything else that changed about him?
A: I remember that for a month or so after her death, he was not as tidy as he always was. Hitler was fanatical about his wardrobe and hygiene being “neat as a pin.” One noticed sometimes a speck of food on his coat, or he would be unshaven for a day here and there. He just wasn’t as perfectly presented as usual. That might sound like a little thing, but it was a huge change. It only lasted a brief while though.
Q: Now let us talk about Eva Braun, Hitler’s wife. When did you first know her?
A: I knew her very well. I knew about Eva from the very beginning, and I also knew about many other love affairs.
Q: You mean before Geli?
A: I mean just in general. Hitler loved women, he had a great weakness for pretty young girls. I knew about them all. It was my husband who arranged the meetings and was a go-between with Hitler and these girls. My husband handled Hitler’s money, so he always had insight into every little thing.
Q: But from the time he met and fell in love with Eva, she was his only one?
A: Technically speaking, yes, but he was not “in love” with her for a long time. Even after he and Eva had become a couple, he still dated other women, at least in 1932. I know this to be certain.
Q: Can you think of names, places, things of this nature?
A: Well, I didn’t keep a written record of it (laughter). There was a young girl, Fräulein Weinrich, who Hitler was crazy about at this time. She was even younger than Eva, I think she was 17. They met privately many times during that year. She looked a lot like Eva, but was a little more heavy, more buxom. Hitler talked about her for years, and my husband arranged a meeting between them in 1938, or in that period. It was before the war.
Q: Were you present at this meeting?
A: Heavens no, this was “under four eyes.” She was wanting to get Hitler’s permission to marry some accountant, and the Führer was still taken with her. Frau Winter later told everyone that Marlene was still in love with the Boss. But he had Eva by that time and he had no room or time for another girl. Let me add that there was absolutely nothing between the Weinrich girl and the Boss anymore. But that was a big, significant love affair he had going at the same time he was courting Eva, back in 1932.
Q: Do you know Miss Weinrich’s first name?
A: Hitler always called him “Lenchen,” or “mein Lenchen.” I heard him say often enough, “Sie is ein wunderschönes Mädel.” (“She is a gorgeous girl”). Her given name was Marlene.
Q: Was she in love with Hitler?
A: She gave every indication of it. He gave her some jewelry and wrote her love notes. But then after Eva’s suicide attempt, we heard very little more about Hitler’s wonderful Lenchen. Whatever Eva offered him, he liked. He chose Eva over Marlene, history shows that.
Q: Let’s return to the subject of Eva Braun. Explain how you first came to know her.
A: She was an assistant to Professor Hoffmann. I first met Eva in 1930. My husband and I had attended a wedding and our film needed developing. It was then when I saw her first.
Q: What were your impressions?
A: That she was a nice, uncomplicated young thing. Eva was not a great intellect, her main pull was that she was pretty, with a good shape. We became friends, she was friendly, what I would call a “free spirit.” Her personality was not serious, but she was fun to be around, for men and for women alike. I myself taken by her.
We became much closer in later years.
Q: When did Hitler meet her, do you know?
A: Around that same time, perhaps earlier, 1930, maybe earlier.
Q: Can you remember when you initially saw them together?
A: It was all so gradual, it would be difficult for me to say. She just started being around more. I would see her at Hoffmann’s home, at Hanfstaengl’s house, she would be sitting at the restaurants and cafes Hitler frequented. She started to be seen with Hitler at night. That struck us all. They would meet up, that alone made me realize Hitler liked her. Why? Because he had to plan ahead to make time for her. For Hitler, an Austrian who like relaxation, this was something.
Q: Geli was still alive then?
A: Naturally. I never saw them together, Eva and Geli, I mean. I don’t think they met, but I cannot swear to that. In any case, Hitler wouldn’t have wanted that. He would have kept them separately.
Q: When did the relationship between Hitler and Eva take a more serious turn?
A: Again, it was so gradual. It was not as if they met one day and married the next. Eva Braun became a fixture in Hitler’s life really only after he took power, before that, she was just one of the girlfriends in Munich.
Q: But it was told to us by Frau Winter that Eva Braun became his mistress in 1932?
A: Actually I beg to differ. 1932 may have been the first occasion Hitler let Eva stay all night in his apartment, but they were together before then. I would say certainly it was in 1931, I am sure of it. Frau Winter only ran Hitler in the city. Away from Munich, he was his own master. He took advantage of this, if need be.
Q: How do you have this information?
(Frau Schaub then talks about her husband’s closeness to Hitler, how he managed his personal affairs, and how Hitler completely trusted Schaub’s discretion, that Schaub “knew everything that was happening.”)
A: In 1931, it came to pass that Hitler took Eva up with him to the mountains. I spent two or three days with Hitler and Eva there, just in our own little circle. My husband and I were the only people who slept overnight with them in the house. Hoffmann and Esser were along too, they both stayed at the Platterhof (an Obersalzberg hotel). We didn’t see them except for one meal, possibly two.
Q: Where was Hitler’s sister, she was the housekeeper there?
A: I don’t know, it was never explained to me. If it was, I have forgotten. She wasn’t there every time, she had a lot of things to tend to back home (Austria). She also spent a great deal of time in Passau. Anyway, she wasn’t there then.
Q: So you are saying that Eva Braun and Hitler were an established couple already then? What is the exact month and year, if you can recall?
A: It was 1931, it was some time after Geli had died. I remember it was chilly, we had fires at night, it was cold fall weather. It wasn’t winter, it was still autumn, but late autumn.
Q: Did you know then that Eva Braun was Hitler’s new girlfriend?
A: (laughter) I had a good idea when I saw them living together at the house for those days. She was not staying in the Pension Moritz or down in town, she was there with Hitler, they were a couple.
Q: As his guest?
A: As his girlfriend.
Q: What did you all do that weekend, can you recall?
A: Well, it wouldn’t be memorable at all except that Hitler was there. Most couples have short vacations, this was a time where the two of them settled in together. It was at first odd to see the Führer with someone other than Geli. One soon grew accustomed to it, however.
Q: Was it unsettling to you that they were staying there together when not legally married?
A: Heavens no. Nobody thought about that. It never occurred to me to think such a thing. Hitler worked very hard in trying to gain control of the government. He, like everyone, deserves also a private life. No judgment would or could ever be passed.
Q: Did you yourself spend time with Eva Braun?
A: That weekend I didn’t, except during the midday meal. We took some excursions to the lakes, that sort of thing. It was all very private, cozy and quiet. This was not an official or political trip. It was merely a chance for Hitler to finally relax, get away from political things.
Q: So that period cemented their relationship?
A: Not to Hitler it didn’t. He still was chasing other women, like Mimchen [Maria Reiter], Lenchen and some others. Eva was not his “one and only.” She was a pretty young thing and he liked her. He liked her very much. But he was not in love with her. Certainly not yet.
Q: Did Hitler swear you and your husband to secrecy after this weekend?
A: There would be no need for that. He knew we were both 100% loyal to him. Neither of us would have ever have discussed the Fuehrer’s private life to anyone. It wasn’t a possibility.
Q: Was it generally known in Munich that Eva Braun was Hitler’s ‘girl?’
A: Not at all. I don’t think even Hoffmann knew, and it was he who had introduced the two of them. Hitler kept Eva a very guarded secret, especially when he was just auditioning her.
Q: I don’t understand the term, ‘auditioning her.’
A: What I mean is that it was evident to us that after Geli’s death, Hitler was intensely lonely. He really needed a woman around him, a woman’s touch. So he was dating Eva secretly, and a few others as well. They were all Munich girls, he preferred Bavarian girls. I have to say that Eva emerged triumphant.
Q: How do you mean by that phrase?
A: In that she was the girl he finally chose. Even after our weekend at Wachenfeld, he continued to see other women. But after all he went through in 1932, it was her that he chose officially to be by his side.
Q: Did Eva Braun know about Hitler’s other girls?
A: I would say definitely not. That knowledge would have made her suffer. Even though Hitler wasn’t in love with her at that time, he was still solicitous enough not to want to hurt her. He had a tender side to him, without question.
Q: Was Eva Braun the jealous type of woman?
A: Very much so! And in these early days, she had just cause. He was away all the time and women were not shy with Hitler. They threw themselves at him. But he said “no” to almost every one. But Eva knew Hitler’s devastating effect upon the female sex. She was always fretting when he absented himself from Munich.
Q: You said earlier that Hitler officially made her his “one and only.” When was this?
A: Right around the time he became Chancellor, in 1933. He stopped seeing other girls. He would receive women in his apartment, but there was nothing going on. Eva was his only romantic interest. She spent evenings and nights with him, she started to travel with him very quietly.
Q: You mean travel to the Obersalzberg?
A: Not merely there. I can give you a specific example, if you want. I know the exact time because it was when my father passed away. It was April, 1933 and Hitler was campaigning.
Q: Hold on a moment, please. By 1933, he was already Chancellor.
A: Of course, but you forget that he still was campaigning heavily throughout 1933. He was in his plane almost as much as the previous year.
Q: Please continue then.
A: It was in April, 1933 and Hitler was exhausted. He was about on his last legs. I had seen him in Berlin the prior week and he was done in. He had been all over, in Berlin, in Frankfurt, he was worn to a frazzle. My husband told Carola Hoffmann this over the phone, that the Chief needed a respite.
Q: Who is Carola Hoffmann?
A: Carola Hoffmann was known in Munich as “Hitler’s Mutti.” She was one of his motherly friends and she was extremely wealthy. In any event, she had a lavish villa in Solln (a suburb of Munich). Frau Hoffmann was taking the cure in Baden Baden and she told Schaub to let Hitler use the house for a day or two.
Q: Did your husband share this news with you?
A: He did, and I knew Frau Hoffmann myself and had been in her home on many occasions. She was one of the richest people in Munich at the time. So Hitler made certain that Eva was at the Starnberger See when his plane landed. They had a meal together and then Hitler took a night or two with Eva at the Frau Hoffmann villa.
Q: Did you see them thre?
A: Not inside the villa, but I saw Eva at the little air strip and I know from my husband that the only two people who slept in the home when Eva and Hitler were there were he and Schreck. He was the Fuhrer’s chauffeur. So Hitler saw her when he was travelling, it’s just that it was kept a guarded secret. I just gave you but one example.
Q: Did the fact that Hitler was making time for her, impress his entourage?
A: Not in the least. We didn’t discuss it. I think the only person who studied it in any great way was me, and perhaps Frau Winter. I thought it was significant Hitler would risk having Eva with him at the Frau Hoffmann residence. Hitler was a great risk taker politically, but not in her personal life.
He was making time for her, and at that time, he had no time.
Q: Did Hitler ever love her?
A: From my vantage point, yes. But it took some years.
Q: Did Eva Braun love Hitler?
A: Without any question she did. How can anybody doubt it when she met her death in the manner she did?
Q: What I meant to say was, how did she make her love known?
A: It was something she could not hide. She was never demonstrative with him, but she was deeply in love.
There are people in our entourage who might tell you these days that Hitler never loved Eva. But under no circumstances would any of us say that Eva didn’t love Hitler.
Q: What time period would you say Hitler’s affection turned, as you claimed, to “love?”
A: It was a lot of accumulated things. He would worry more about her. He would phone her more often and fret. He would show her more solicitude. I think, for me, once he did the renovation which turned into the Berghof, Hitler was content with Eva and he was in love with her. One could see it.
Q: In what way?
A: Just the way that he designed a home which made their private life a focal point, that was an excellent indicator. And he got rid of his sister. Once she started dating that Hamitisch fellow, she was gone. It was Eva’s domain pretty much after 1934.
Q: How did that come about?
A: Frau Raubal had never been nice about Eva. She thought it was horrible that the Fuhrer had taken up with another young girl right on the heels of her daughter’s end.
(Note: The Goebbels diary also mentioned Hitler spending much time with Marlene Weinrich. There are also photos from April 24, 1933, of Hitler landing in Starnbeger See, where he apparently rendezous’ed with Eva. And Helene Hanfstaengl confirmed to John Toland in 1975 that Hitler indeed had begged her on bended knee to “take care of him” in 1925.)
Q: Please explain Hitler’s sister and why she had to vacate the Berghof in 1936.
A: She had never been accepting of Eva Braun. She didn’t like that the Führer had another young girl in his life. After what happened to Geli, I can’t say I place blame on her. Hitler was not close to his sister at all. They almost never were together, one almost never saw them conversing, for instance.
Q: What was Eva Braun’s relationship with Hitler’s sister?
A: Non-existent.
Q: But they were living in the Berghof under the same roof.
A: No, that is not exactly correct. Frau Raubal (Hitler’s sister), got married to a man named Hamitzsch. Hitler hated him and ran her off shortly after she married him. Frau Raubal never stepped foot in the Berghof, she was the house mistress of the old Wachenfeld.
Q: You’re saying Eva never knew Hitler’s sister?
A: Well yes, they saw one another, but Eva was very retiring then. She was subdued around Hitler, especially when her position was so awkward in those years. She just spent her days waiting for him, the house really was small. Frau Raubal and Eva Braun had almost nothing to do with each other. Hitler kept Eva away from everybody in those early days.
(Above: Studio portrait of Eva Braun taken by Heinrich Hoffman)
Q: But his sister undoubtedly had to know Eva was living in the house?
A: Sometimes Hitler had Eva stay at the Platterhof. Usually she stayed in the house but as I said, Frau Raubal’s influence was minimal after Geli’s death. She was also absent from the mountain for long periods.
She knew Eva was there, but feigned not knowing.
Q: Let’s talk about some other women around Hitler. Did you know Leni Riefenstahl?
A: I knew her exceptionally well. I grew to know her very well recently, but knew her very well in the early days. She was very much in love with the Führer.
Q: How do you know this?
A: Because she said it often enough to me, and to Frau Winter. She wanted very much to become the primary woman in Hitler’s life, but he wasn’t interested. She wasn’t his type of woman. Professionally he esteemed her, but he would never have approached her for more.
Q: Did he say this?
A: Not in so many words, no. But Leni Riefenstahl was a woman of the world, she was quite open in her views, she expressed opinions and wasn’t easily manipulated. She was far too worldly-wise for the Führer. When I finally told her this, she was relieved. She thought he just wasn’t attracted to her enough. She chased the Führer for many years.
Q: Leni Riefenstahl now denies she ever loved Hitler.
A: (laughter) She can deny it all she wishes, I know the truth. Hitler was flattered she wanted him, but he was not interested.
30 June 1937: Adolf Hitler greets Leni Riefenstahl at her Berlin house. (© Photo credit: Bayerische Staatsbibliothek - Fotoarchiv Hoffmann hoff-2104)
Q: Did you know the English student, Unity Mitford?
A: Certainly, though we were never friends. I never ever saw her alone. She was never part of the Führer’s circle, except during café time in Munich. I never saw her anywhere except in Munich.
Q: Was there a relationship between Hitler and Miss Mitford?
A: No. There was no chance that anything happened between them. I don’t think Hitler ever saw her alone. She came to his apartment on rare occasions, but either my husband or Frau Winter would be there, to protect him. He was strict like that.
Q: What do you mean, ‘protect him?’
A: I mean that Hitler was always very careful about proprieties. He was very, very careful about his position and women. He always had to have a witness. A “chaperone,” if you will. The only woman he saw alone in his apartment, or anywhere else, was Eva. He trusted her implicitly, he trusted no other woman. He used to say towards the end, “the only two things I can trust are Eva and Blondi.”
Q: Can you talk about Frau Goebbels?
A: What specifically?
Q: What was her relationship like with Hitler?
A: Frau Goebbels was a complicated woman with very intense feelings for the Führer.
She was another woman like Leni Riefenstahl, who was crazy for Hitler, but not suitable or not wanted by him in that way. My husband and some others always felt she married Dr. Goebbels simply in order to be near Hitler.
Q: Why would Goebbels tolerate that?
A: What say did he have in the matter? He was completely bound to Hitler and Hitler liked Frau Goebbels, she was one of the few women he listened to and respected.
Q: How much time did Hitler spend with Frau Goebbels?
A: Not as much as she would have wanted! (laughter) She was intensely interested in Hitler, and was from their first meetings.
Q: You said Hitler liked her and respected her. How did he show that?
A: It was apparent. When they had met, she was not yet married, but she was either divorced or in the process of divorcing. Hitler would never have a relationship with such a woman. She also had a son from the marriage, a boy Hitler was fond of. Frau Goebbels made no secret she would have done anything to have an intimate relationship with Hitler. But he wasn’t interested.
Q: So all these women we’ve been discussing were more or less were in love with Hitler?
A: They all were, yes.
Q: Did Eva Braun know of these ladies?
A: Without question she did. Eva was very jealous, she was always asking me what was going on in Berlin, who the Führer was seeing, what women were there, things like that. She was very jealous of Unity Mitford because Unity, like Eva, was in Munich.
Q: What did you say to her when she had jealousy fits?
A: I always told her the same thing: “Eva, you have no cause to be jealous. The Führer might dine with these ladies, but he comes home to you.” That seemed to placate the poor girl.
Q: Did these other women know about the existence of Eva Braun?
A: Unity Mitford certainly did. She asked about Eva and went out of her way to see Eva in person. She knew about her. Unity also was not really the Führer’s type. She was very tall, no bosom and had something of a masculine walk. But he enjoyed her company, she was amusing. Frau Goebbels naturally knew about Eva, but Hitler kept them apart.
Q: Why was this?
A: I think because he didn’t want conflict. Eva knew very well that Frau Goebbels was in love with Hitler. She never made any progress in her mission, but it was upsetting nonetheless to her. Frau Goebbels was in Berlin, Eva rarely was there until she got a room next to Hitler’s room, that would be 1939.
Q: How much time did you actually spend with Eva? What did you two talk about?
A: In Munich, I would see Eva as a matter of course. She would be at Hitler’s apartment when he was there, it was all done very quietly. Hitler never ate in his apartment unless Eva was around, he would go out. Eva usually would be banished on such occasions. She just had to wait for him to return to her. She would have tea with him, then leave, then come back in the evenings.
Q: And at the Berghof?
A: That was better for her, because she could eat her meals with Hitler, have her sister or her friends over, and have a gay, fun time when he was busy. Hitler encouraged her to enjoy herself. He was taken up with increasing burdens, he never objected to her having friends, parties or excursions.
Q: Would you say Hitler took her for granted?
A: It’s hard to say, but I would say yes. Her life could be very boring, just waiting for him to show up. He just wasn’t a romantic type of heroic figure that German women thought. He was really just a very busy man who had a lot on his mind. That’s putting his life into a simplistic form, but it’s true.
Q: Eva Braun suffered then, from this mistreatment?
A: I didn’t use that word. He neglected her sometimes because of the demands of his position. Eva never understood that, she wanted a normal life with a normal man. But Adolf Hitler did not fit into that pattern.
Q: How would you answer the talk that Hitler was abnormal with women?
A: I would laugh. The only thing “abnormal” about him was that he was so strict with his private life. He held himself back from countless romantic adventures. He had a lot of self-control, most men do not. That’s the only thing abnormal about him.
In every respect, he was normal.
Q: In your estimation, he had a normal private life with Eva Braun?
A: Of course, they were a normal couple, one could see that. He was away a lot, but whenever they could arrange it, they lived together as a husband and wife. What more needs to be said, than Hitler redesigning his house so that Eva could be with him?
Q: There has been rumors that Eva Braun had other male suitors?
A: I never heard such rumors when they were both alive and I can dismiss them out of hand. Hitler was a one-woman man and she was the same towards him. All these rumors are just lies from people who never knew the Führer. You can ask anyone of us that were close to him: they are ridiculous lies.
Q: Was Hitler complimentary of her?
A: It depends on what period you are talking about. In the early days, yes, he was unbelievably charming to her. He would always compliment her and be highly flirtatious. Once they had settled in together, not so much. Like you said, perhaps he had started to take her for granted.
He thought she was a pretty and and “very cute,” he liked to tease her as well.
Q: And Eva Braun, was she complimentary to Hitler?
A: To me, and to a few of her friends, such as Frau Schneider [Herta Schneider], Eva could gush over the Führer, like a besotted girl. She thought he was wonderful and went into raptures over his blue eyes. But to Hitler, she would never have shown this side, she was more calm.
Q: And what about Hitler’s eyes? They were famous, even in the United States and in other allied countries.
A: For just cause the eyes were a topic, he had a riveting stare and his eyes were quite remarkable. It was not surprising Eva went into rhapsodies over them. She was not the only one.
Wilma Schaub (Wilhelmina "Wilno" Giersingenovou; alternately Wilhelmina Giersinken; 12.12.1906 – 1967, München) was the wife of Hitler’s chief adjutant, SS Obergruppenführer Julius Schaub (20.8.1898, München – 27.12.1967, München). They married on 5 May, 1931, in the St. Matthew’s Church in Munich and had two sons Wieland (1942-1951) and Wolfgang (1932–1937). The Schaub family is buried in München, Ostfriedhof, at the St Martins Platz 1. Plot 7-Reihe 6-Grab 19.
Source: https://ww2gravestone.com/people/schaub-julius/
Wilma knew Hitler from the early days of the Nazi party and spent a great deal of time with him over the years. In March 1947, American judge Michael Musmanno conducted a two-day interview with her about everything she had experienced with Hitler. Below are some excerpts relating to Hitler and his relationship with women, translated and typed up by an American researcher blogging under the username putschgirl on Tumblr (putschgirl.tumblr.com, currently adolfhitler33.wordpress.com) The document containing the full text of the interview is archived with the rest of the Musmanno Papers in the Duquesne University Archives at Gumberg Library, Digital Collections, Pittsburgh, USA.
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Q: When did you first meet Adolf Hitler?
A: It was when he was released from Landsberg, it was shortly after that. So it must have been 1925.
Q: Where was it when you first met him?
A: It was at Herr and Frau Hanfstaengl’s apartment in Bogenhausen. We had all driven back from their country home in Uffing and I saw Hitler getting out of the car, taking off his overcoat.
Q: Do you remember your first impressions of Hitler?
A: Certainly, I was impressed with him. Very much so. I’m not embarrassed to admit that now. He was an impressive man, then as well as later.
Q: What was it specifically that impressed you?
A: Oh, I don’t know if I can put it into words. He was always very dynamic, there was always an energy around him that was palpable. You could feel it. It’s very hard to put this precisely into words. You knew this was a young man with a mission. Then it was only a question if he would succeed, but he was what we called “a comer.” Someone with strange power and who possessed great potential.
Q: Who was it that introduced you to Hitler?
A: It was Helene Hanfstaengl, the lady of the house. Hitler was very much attracted to her, he liked spending time over there because she was often there. This was his period where he was love struck with her.
Q: Was there any type of relationship between them?
A: No, but Hitler, I believe, would have wanted one. When he got out of prison, Helene told everyone he had thrown himself at her, begging her to take care of him. He got down on his knees to her.
Q: Got down on his knees?
A: Yes, this is what Helene Hanfstaengl told us. He put his head against her bosom and moaned, “if only you would take care of me.” It was just around that time when this occurred. Her husband was not around the house that evening.
Q: Do you believe her story?
A: Yes, I have no reason to doubt it. Especially since I saw Hitler make eyes at her for years afterwards. He laid siege to her for years, but she wouldn’t be unfaithful to her husband, so Hitler finally lost interest in a potential romance.
Q: Did it bother Hitler that this lady was married to his friend, his associate?
A: I can’t make a statement about that, I couldn’t get into his thought process. It certainly didn’t seem to bother him back then.
Q:What was Hitler like then, in 1925?
A: Oh, he was just very dynamic. He had just gotten out of prison and wanted to taste freedom again. He was very intent on going to all the Munich pastry shops and gorging himself on sweets. He was relaxed with the people he knew well, but he was always reserved in company. He wanted to take drives, eat sweets, look at pretty girls, all the things had been deprived of while in protective custody.
Q: Was this all occuring in Munich?
A: Yes, in those early days, I didn’t always travel with my husband when he would accompany Hitler to various places. But remember, for a few years at least, there was a speaking ban that Hitler had to obey. So he spent most of his time between Munich and Berchtesgaden, where Frau Bechstein had bought him a house.
Q: Was this the famous Berghof?
A: Technically no. Hitler’s house then was called just Wachenfeld. It was just a simple house with a few bedrooms. Houseguests always had to be lodged elsewhere, there just wasn’t enough room for everybody. At first I stayed at the Pension Moritz. Frau Bechstein bought the home from a man named Winter, I think.
Q: Is this the same Winter who ran Hitler’s Munich apartment?
A: No, they are two different people. There’s not a connection there.
(Frau Schaub then talked about Hitler’s friends in the mountains, and his daily routine).
Q: Did you know Hitler’s sister, Frau Raubal?
A: Of course, she was there at Wachenfeld later on. I never met her or her daughters until 1928. They lived in Austria.
Q: One of those daughters was Geli, Hitler’s niece?
A: The two girls were Geli and Friedl, they were half nieces. I was hearty friends with them both. Friedl was prettier, but did not have the gay, carefree personality of Geli. Leo, her son, I also met, but he was retiring and never lived at Wachenfeld. He stayed in Passau.
Q: What was the relationship between Hitler and his niece?
A: There’s no question he loved her. He loved her as much as was capable of loving anyone. Of that I have no doubt whatsoever, it was apparent to even a silly person with no pair of eyes.
Q: How can you be sure?
A: (laughter) It was not a secret, everyone knew. What struck me then was that Hitler threw away all caution with her. He had always been so secretive about his prior relationships. With Geli, he didn’t seem to care who saw them together.
Q: She was very young then, however?
A: I am not sure how old Geli was when I met her. I believe she was 23 or 24 when she killed herself, so she must have been 20 when I met her. Yes, I would think she was 20.
Q: Did she return Hitler’s love?
A: That is harder to say. He was a star, don’t forget that. His nickname then was “The King of Munich.” He was quite a catch for any woman, as hard as it is for you to believe that today. I think gradually she suffered because Hitler was very jealous. He tried to control her and that bothered her greatly. He really interfered with her private life, unless he was the center of it.
Q: What do you mean, he ‘tried to control her?’
A: Well, how can I elaborate? Just as I said, he wanted her on a leash. He was crazy with jealously when she would go out with other men or “deceive” him. He wanted her all to himself. They spent a lot of time together, but also Geli went out with other men. During Fasching (Munich’s carnival), she would absent herself all night. This drove Hitler to despair.
Q: What do you recall about her death?
A: It was actually me who attended the theater the night Geli shot herself. I anticipated nothing like this, nobody did. It was a sudden lightening bolt.
Q: You were with her the night of her death?
A: Indeed I was. She was distracted that night, silent, a little morose, but she was like that often enough. My husband and Hitler were away on a trip. I remember Geli bought herself some chocolate at intermission, but she wasn’t gay that night. She seemed sad.
Q: How did Hitler react to her suicide?
A: He was… he just was shattered. He was never the same man.
He was never at all the same person as he was in the 20’s.
Q: How do you mean this?
A: I mean that he was devastated, completely shaken . He was totally desolate for weeks. Many of use thought he would leave politics, retire or go mad. Some people worried he might even take his own life, but I never thought that way. He was very selfish at that time, consumed with his grief. I knew he wouldn’t kill himself.
Q: Are you sure it was suicide, she was not murdered?
A: Of course not. She killed herself. There is no doubt about that.
Q: Did you speak to Hitler about this?
A: Not at first, nobody did. No one dared to bring this up. Hoffmann took him somewhere away from Munich, and then he visited Geli’s grave in Vienna. He had to sneak in because he was not supposed to leave Germany, something about his service in the World War, I don’t remember the details. It was only a few weeks later that I expressed to him my sadness.
Q: Was there anything else that changed about him?
A: I remember that for a month or so after her death, he was not as tidy as he always was. Hitler was fanatical about his wardrobe and hygiene being “neat as a pin.” One noticed sometimes a speck of food on his coat, or he would be unshaven for a day here and there. He just wasn’t as perfectly presented as usual. That might sound like a little thing, but it was a huge change. It only lasted a brief while though.
Q: Now let us talk about Eva Braun, Hitler’s wife. When did you first know her?
A: I knew her very well. I knew about Eva from the very beginning, and I also knew about many other love affairs.
Q: You mean before Geli?
A: I mean just in general. Hitler loved women, he had a great weakness for pretty young girls. I knew about them all. It was my husband who arranged the meetings and was a go-between with Hitler and these girls. My husband handled Hitler’s money, so he always had insight into every little thing.
Q: But from the time he met and fell in love with Eva, she was his only one?
A: Technically speaking, yes, but he was not “in love” with her for a long time. Even after he and Eva had become a couple, he still dated other women, at least in 1932. I know this to be certain.
Q: Can you think of names, places, things of this nature?
A: Well, I didn’t keep a written record of it (laughter). There was a young girl, Fräulein Weinrich, who Hitler was crazy about at this time. She was even younger than Eva, I think she was 17. They met privately many times during that year. She looked a lot like Eva, but was a little more heavy, more buxom. Hitler talked about her for years, and my husband arranged a meeting between them in 1938, or in that period. It was before the war.
Q: Were you present at this meeting?
A: Heavens no, this was “under four eyes.” She was wanting to get Hitler’s permission to marry some accountant, and the Führer was still taken with her. Frau Winter later told everyone that Marlene was still in love with the Boss. But he had Eva by that time and he had no room or time for another girl. Let me add that there was absolutely nothing between the Weinrich girl and the Boss anymore. But that was a big, significant love affair he had going at the same time he was courting Eva, back in 1932.
Q: Do you know Miss Weinrich’s first name?
A: Hitler always called him “Lenchen,” or “mein Lenchen.” I heard him say often enough, “Sie is ein wunderschönes Mädel.” (“She is a gorgeous girl”). Her given name was Marlene.
Q: Was she in love with Hitler?
A: She gave every indication of it. He gave her some jewelry and wrote her love notes. But then after Eva’s suicide attempt, we heard very little more about Hitler’s wonderful Lenchen. Whatever Eva offered him, he liked. He chose Eva over Marlene, history shows that.
Q: Let’s return to the subject of Eva Braun. Explain how you first came to know her.
A: She was an assistant to Professor Hoffmann. I first met Eva in 1930. My husband and I had attended a wedding and our film needed developing. It was then when I saw her first.
Q: What were your impressions?
A: That she was a nice, uncomplicated young thing. Eva was not a great intellect, her main pull was that she was pretty, with a good shape. We became friends, she was friendly, what I would call a “free spirit.” Her personality was not serious, but she was fun to be around, for men and for women alike. I myself taken by her.
We became much closer in later years.
Q: When did Hitler meet her, do you know?
A: Around that same time, perhaps earlier, 1930, maybe earlier.
Q: Can you remember when you initially saw them together?
A: It was all so gradual, it would be difficult for me to say. She just started being around more. I would see her at Hoffmann’s home, at Hanfstaengl’s house, she would be sitting at the restaurants and cafes Hitler frequented. She started to be seen with Hitler at night. That struck us all. They would meet up, that alone made me realize Hitler liked her. Why? Because he had to plan ahead to make time for her. For Hitler, an Austrian who like relaxation, this was something.
Q: Geli was still alive then?
A: Naturally. I never saw them together, Eva and Geli, I mean. I don’t think they met, but I cannot swear to that. In any case, Hitler wouldn’t have wanted that. He would have kept them separately.
Q: When did the relationship between Hitler and Eva take a more serious turn?
A: Again, it was so gradual. It was not as if they met one day and married the next. Eva Braun became a fixture in Hitler’s life really only after he took power, before that, she was just one of the girlfriends in Munich.
Q: But it was told to us by Frau Winter that Eva Braun became his mistress in 1932?
A: Actually I beg to differ. 1932 may have been the first occasion Hitler let Eva stay all night in his apartment, but they were together before then. I would say certainly it was in 1931, I am sure of it. Frau Winter only ran Hitler in the city. Away from Munich, he was his own master. He took advantage of this, if need be.
Q: How do you have this information?
(Frau Schaub then talks about her husband’s closeness to Hitler, how he managed his personal affairs, and how Hitler completely trusted Schaub’s discretion, that Schaub “knew everything that was happening.”)
A: In 1931, it came to pass that Hitler took Eva up with him to the mountains. I spent two or three days with Hitler and Eva there, just in our own little circle. My husband and I were the only people who slept overnight with them in the house. Hoffmann and Esser were along too, they both stayed at the Platterhof (an Obersalzberg hotel). We didn’t see them except for one meal, possibly two.
Q: Where was Hitler’s sister, she was the housekeeper there?
A: I don’t know, it was never explained to me. If it was, I have forgotten. She wasn’t there every time, she had a lot of things to tend to back home (Austria). She also spent a great deal of time in Passau. Anyway, she wasn’t there then.
Q: So you are saying that Eva Braun and Hitler were an established couple already then? What is the exact month and year, if you can recall?
A: It was 1931, it was some time after Geli had died. I remember it was chilly, we had fires at night, it was cold fall weather. It wasn’t winter, it was still autumn, but late autumn.
Q: Did you know then that Eva Braun was Hitler’s new girlfriend?
A: (laughter) I had a good idea when I saw them living together at the house for those days. She was not staying in the Pension Moritz or down in town, she was there with Hitler, they were a couple.
Q: As his guest?
A: As his girlfriend.
Q: What did you all do that weekend, can you recall?
A: Well, it wouldn’t be memorable at all except that Hitler was there. Most couples have short vacations, this was a time where the two of them settled in together. It was at first odd to see the Führer with someone other than Geli. One soon grew accustomed to it, however.
Q: Was it unsettling to you that they were staying there together when not legally married?
A: Heavens no. Nobody thought about that. It never occurred to me to think such a thing. Hitler worked very hard in trying to gain control of the government. He, like everyone, deserves also a private life. No judgment would or could ever be passed.
Q: Did you yourself spend time with Eva Braun?
A: That weekend I didn’t, except during the midday meal. We took some excursions to the lakes, that sort of thing. It was all very private, cozy and quiet. This was not an official or political trip. It was merely a chance for Hitler to finally relax, get away from political things.
Q: So that period cemented their relationship?
A: Not to Hitler it didn’t. He still was chasing other women, like Mimchen [Maria Reiter], Lenchen and some others. Eva was not his “one and only.” She was a pretty young thing and he liked her. He liked her very much. But he was not in love with her. Certainly not yet.
Q: Did Hitler swear you and your husband to secrecy after this weekend?
A: There would be no need for that. He knew we were both 100% loyal to him. Neither of us would have ever have discussed the Fuehrer’s private life to anyone. It wasn’t a possibility.
Q: Was it generally known in Munich that Eva Braun was Hitler’s ‘girl?’
A: Not at all. I don’t think even Hoffmann knew, and it was he who had introduced the two of them. Hitler kept Eva a very guarded secret, especially when he was just auditioning her.
Q: I don’t understand the term, ‘auditioning her.’
A: What I mean is that it was evident to us that after Geli’s death, Hitler was intensely lonely. He really needed a woman around him, a woman’s touch. So he was dating Eva secretly, and a few others as well. They were all Munich girls, he preferred Bavarian girls. I have to say that Eva emerged triumphant.
Q: How do you mean by that phrase?
A: In that she was the girl he finally chose. Even after our weekend at Wachenfeld, he continued to see other women. But after all he went through in 1932, it was her that he chose officially to be by his side.
Q: Did Eva Braun know about Hitler’s other girls?
A: I would say definitely not. That knowledge would have made her suffer. Even though Hitler wasn’t in love with her at that time, he was still solicitous enough not to want to hurt her. He had a tender side to him, without question.
Q: Was Eva Braun the jealous type of woman?
A: Very much so! And in these early days, she had just cause. He was away all the time and women were not shy with Hitler. They threw themselves at him. But he said “no” to almost every one. But Eva knew Hitler’s devastating effect upon the female sex. She was always fretting when he absented himself from Munich.
Q: You said earlier that Hitler officially made her his “one and only.” When was this?
A: Right around the time he became Chancellor, in 1933. He stopped seeing other girls. He would receive women in his apartment, but there was nothing going on. Eva was his only romantic interest. She spent evenings and nights with him, she started to travel with him very quietly.
Q: You mean travel to the Obersalzberg?
A: Not merely there. I can give you a specific example, if you want. I know the exact time because it was when my father passed away. It was April, 1933 and Hitler was campaigning.
Q: Hold on a moment, please. By 1933, he was already Chancellor.
A: Of course, but you forget that he still was campaigning heavily throughout 1933. He was in his plane almost as much as the previous year.
Q: Please continue then.
A: It was in April, 1933 and Hitler was exhausted. He was about on his last legs. I had seen him in Berlin the prior week and he was done in. He had been all over, in Berlin, in Frankfurt, he was worn to a frazzle. My husband told Carola Hoffmann this over the phone, that the Chief needed a respite.
Q: Who is Carola Hoffmann?
A: Carola Hoffmann was known in Munich as “Hitler’s Mutti.” She was one of his motherly friends and she was extremely wealthy. In any event, she had a lavish villa in Solln (a suburb of Munich). Frau Hoffmann was taking the cure in Baden Baden and she told Schaub to let Hitler use the house for a day or two.
Q: Did your husband share this news with you?
A: He did, and I knew Frau Hoffmann myself and had been in her home on many occasions. She was one of the richest people in Munich at the time. So Hitler made certain that Eva was at the Starnberger See when his plane landed. They had a meal together and then Hitler took a night or two with Eva at the Frau Hoffmann villa.
Q: Did you see them thre?
A: Not inside the villa, but I saw Eva at the little air strip and I know from my husband that the only two people who slept in the home when Eva and Hitler were there were he and Schreck. He was the Fuhrer’s chauffeur. So Hitler saw her when he was travelling, it’s just that it was kept a guarded secret. I just gave you but one example.
Q: Did the fact that Hitler was making time for her, impress his entourage?
A: Not in the least. We didn’t discuss it. I think the only person who studied it in any great way was me, and perhaps Frau Winter. I thought it was significant Hitler would risk having Eva with him at the Frau Hoffmann residence. Hitler was a great risk taker politically, but not in her personal life.
He was making time for her, and at that time, he had no time.
Q: Did Hitler ever love her?
A: From my vantage point, yes. But it took some years.
Q: Did Eva Braun love Hitler?
A: Without any question she did. How can anybody doubt it when she met her death in the manner she did?
Q: What I meant to say was, how did she make her love known?
A: It was something she could not hide. She was never demonstrative with him, but she was deeply in love.
There are people in our entourage who might tell you these days that Hitler never loved Eva. But under no circumstances would any of us say that Eva didn’t love Hitler.
Q: What time period would you say Hitler’s affection turned, as you claimed, to “love?”
A: It was a lot of accumulated things. He would worry more about her. He would phone her more often and fret. He would show her more solicitude. I think, for me, once he did the renovation which turned into the Berghof, Hitler was content with Eva and he was in love with her. One could see it.
Q: In what way?
A: Just the way that he designed a home which made their private life a focal point, that was an excellent indicator. And he got rid of his sister. Once she started dating that Hamitisch fellow, she was gone. It was Eva’s domain pretty much after 1934.
Q: How did that come about?
A: Frau Raubal had never been nice about Eva. She thought it was horrible that the Fuhrer had taken up with another young girl right on the heels of her daughter’s end.
(Note: The Goebbels diary also mentioned Hitler spending much time with Marlene Weinrich. There are also photos from April 24, 1933, of Hitler landing in Starnbeger See, where he apparently rendezous’ed with Eva. And Helene Hanfstaengl confirmed to John Toland in 1975 that Hitler indeed had begged her on bended knee to “take care of him” in 1925.)
Q: Please explain Hitler’s sister and why she had to vacate the Berghof in 1936.
A: She had never been accepting of Eva Braun. She didn’t like that the Führer had another young girl in his life. After what happened to Geli, I can’t say I place blame on her. Hitler was not close to his sister at all. They almost never were together, one almost never saw them conversing, for instance.
Q: What was Eva Braun’s relationship with Hitler’s sister?
A: Non-existent.
Q: But they were living in the Berghof under the same roof.
A: No, that is not exactly correct. Frau Raubal (Hitler’s sister), got married to a man named Hamitzsch. Hitler hated him and ran her off shortly after she married him. Frau Raubal never stepped foot in the Berghof, she was the house mistress of the old Wachenfeld.
Q: You’re saying Eva never knew Hitler’s sister?
A: Well yes, they saw one another, but Eva was very retiring then. She was subdued around Hitler, especially when her position was so awkward in those years. She just spent her days waiting for him, the house really was small. Frau Raubal and Eva Braun had almost nothing to do with each other. Hitler kept Eva away from everybody in those early days.
(Above: Studio portrait of Eva Braun taken by Heinrich Hoffman)
Q: But his sister undoubtedly had to know Eva was living in the house?
A: Sometimes Hitler had Eva stay at the Platterhof. Usually she stayed in the house but as I said, Frau Raubal’s influence was minimal after Geli’s death. She was also absent from the mountain for long periods.
She knew Eva was there, but feigned not knowing.
Q: Let’s talk about some other women around Hitler. Did you know Leni Riefenstahl?
A: I knew her exceptionally well. I grew to know her very well recently, but knew her very well in the early days. She was very much in love with the Führer.
Q: How do you know this?
A: Because she said it often enough to me, and to Frau Winter. She wanted very much to become the primary woman in Hitler’s life, but he wasn’t interested. She wasn’t his type of woman. Professionally he esteemed her, but he would never have approached her for more.
Q: Did he say this?
A: Not in so many words, no. But Leni Riefenstahl was a woman of the world, she was quite open in her views, she expressed opinions and wasn’t easily manipulated. She was far too worldly-wise for the Führer. When I finally told her this, she was relieved. She thought he just wasn’t attracted to her enough. She chased the Führer for many years.
Q: Leni Riefenstahl now denies she ever loved Hitler.
A: (laughter) She can deny it all she wishes, I know the truth. Hitler was flattered she wanted him, but he was not interested.
30 June 1937: Adolf Hitler greets Leni Riefenstahl at her Berlin house. (© Photo credit: Bayerische Staatsbibliothek - Fotoarchiv Hoffmann hoff-2104)
Q: Did you know the English student, Unity Mitford?
A: Certainly, though we were never friends. I never ever saw her alone. She was never part of the Führer’s circle, except during café time in Munich. I never saw her anywhere except in Munich.
Q: Was there a relationship between Hitler and Miss Mitford?
A: No. There was no chance that anything happened between them. I don’t think Hitler ever saw her alone. She came to his apartment on rare occasions, but either my husband or Frau Winter would be there, to protect him. He was strict like that.
Q: What do you mean, ‘protect him?’
A: I mean that Hitler was always very careful about proprieties. He was very, very careful about his position and women. He always had to have a witness. A “chaperone,” if you will. The only woman he saw alone in his apartment, or anywhere else, was Eva. He trusted her implicitly, he trusted no other woman. He used to say towards the end, “the only two things I can trust are Eva and Blondi.”
Q: Can you talk about Frau Goebbels?
A: What specifically?
Q: What was her relationship like with Hitler?
A: Frau Goebbels was a complicated woman with very intense feelings for the Führer.
She was another woman like Leni Riefenstahl, who was crazy for Hitler, but not suitable or not wanted by him in that way. My husband and some others always felt she married Dr. Goebbels simply in order to be near Hitler.
Q: Why would Goebbels tolerate that?
A: What say did he have in the matter? He was completely bound to Hitler and Hitler liked Frau Goebbels, she was one of the few women he listened to and respected.
Q: How much time did Hitler spend with Frau Goebbels?
A: Not as much as she would have wanted! (laughter) She was intensely interested in Hitler, and was from their first meetings.
Q: You said Hitler liked her and respected her. How did he show that?
A: It was apparent. When they had met, she was not yet married, but she was either divorced or in the process of divorcing. Hitler would never have a relationship with such a woman. She also had a son from the marriage, a boy Hitler was fond of. Frau Goebbels made no secret she would have done anything to have an intimate relationship with Hitler. But he wasn’t interested.
Q: So all these women we’ve been discussing were more or less were in love with Hitler?
A: They all were, yes.
Q: Did Eva Braun know of these ladies?
A: Without question she did. Eva was very jealous, she was always asking me what was going on in Berlin, who the Führer was seeing, what women were there, things like that. She was very jealous of Unity Mitford because Unity, like Eva, was in Munich.
Q: What did you say to her when she had jealousy fits?
A: I always told her the same thing: “Eva, you have no cause to be jealous. The Führer might dine with these ladies, but he comes home to you.” That seemed to placate the poor girl.
Q: Did these other women know about the existence of Eva Braun?
A: Unity Mitford certainly did. She asked about Eva and went out of her way to see Eva in person. She knew about her. Unity also was not really the Führer’s type. She was very tall, no bosom and had something of a masculine walk. But he enjoyed her company, she was amusing. Frau Goebbels naturally knew about Eva, but Hitler kept them apart.
Q: Why was this?
A: I think because he didn’t want conflict. Eva knew very well that Frau Goebbels was in love with Hitler. She never made any progress in her mission, but it was upsetting nonetheless to her. Frau Goebbels was in Berlin, Eva rarely was there until she got a room next to Hitler’s room, that would be 1939.
Q: How much time did you actually spend with Eva? What did you two talk about?
A: In Munich, I would see Eva as a matter of course. She would be at Hitler’s apartment when he was there, it was all done very quietly. Hitler never ate in his apartment unless Eva was around, he would go out. Eva usually would be banished on such occasions. She just had to wait for him to return to her. She would have tea with him, then leave, then come back in the evenings.
Q: And at the Berghof?
A: That was better for her, because she could eat her meals with Hitler, have her sister or her friends over, and have a gay, fun time when he was busy. Hitler encouraged her to enjoy herself. He was taken up with increasing burdens, he never objected to her having friends, parties or excursions.
Q: Would you say Hitler took her for granted?
A: It’s hard to say, but I would say yes. Her life could be very boring, just waiting for him to show up. He just wasn’t a romantic type of heroic figure that German women thought. He was really just a very busy man who had a lot on his mind. That’s putting his life into a simplistic form, but it’s true.
Q: Eva Braun suffered then, from this mistreatment?
A: I didn’t use that word. He neglected her sometimes because of the demands of his position. Eva never understood that, she wanted a normal life with a normal man. But Adolf Hitler did not fit into that pattern.
Q: How would you answer the talk that Hitler was abnormal with women?
A: I would laugh. The only thing “abnormal” about him was that he was so strict with his private life. He held himself back from countless romantic adventures. He had a lot of self-control, most men do not. That’s the only thing abnormal about him.
In every respect, he was normal.
Q: In your estimation, he had a normal private life with Eva Braun?
A: Of course, they were a normal couple, one could see that. He was away a lot, but whenever they could arrange it, they lived together as a husband and wife. What more needs to be said, than Hitler redesigning his house so that Eva could be with him?
Q: There has been rumors that Eva Braun had other male suitors?
A: I never heard such rumors when they were both alive and I can dismiss them out of hand. Hitler was a one-woman man and she was the same towards him. All these rumors are just lies from people who never knew the Führer. You can ask anyone of us that were close to him: they are ridiculous lies.
Q: Was Hitler complimentary of her?
A: It depends on what period you are talking about. In the early days, yes, he was unbelievably charming to her. He would always compliment her and be highly flirtatious. Once they had settled in together, not so much. Like you said, perhaps he had started to take her for granted.
He thought she was a pretty and and “very cute,” he liked to tease her as well.
Q: And Eva Braun, was she complimentary to Hitler?
A: To me, and to a few of her friends, such as Frau Schneider [Herta Schneider], Eva could gush over the Führer, like a besotted girl. She thought he was wonderful and went into raptures over his blue eyes. But to Hitler, she would never have shown this side, she was more calm.
Q: And what about Hitler’s eyes? They were famous, even in the United States and in other allied countries.
A: For just cause the eyes were a topic, he had a riveting stare and his eyes were quite remarkable. It was not surprising Eva went into rhapsodies over them. She was not the only one.
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